PCGS and NGC Grading

[Shaun]

16 hours ago, CaptCaveMan said:

For better or worse I've picked up my first slab and here was me thinking nope, they're better 'raw' in NGC terminology 😆

Well it arrived today and now I'm looking at graded Sovereigns and considering if I should send some off 🙈 where does it end...

Well done it's a great coin 🙂

I know NGC is easier to grade with in the UK due to a few passthrough companies, but I would seriously consider PCGS's options. Sign up (I think for free), and take a look at their "Set Registry", it's honestly far suprior.

I can submit a few coins here and there to PCGS for people on the forum, not in bulk and not all of the time, mainly for a few new collectors looking to get started!

[CaptCaveMan]

3 hours ago, Shaun said:

Well done it's a great coin 🙂

I know NGC is easier to grade with in the UK due to a few passthrough companies, but I would seriously consider PCGS's options. Sign up (I think for free), and take a look at their "Set Registry", it's honestly far suprior.

I can submit a few coins here and there to PCGS for people on the forum, not in bulk and not all of the time, mainly for a few new collectors looking to get started!

Cheers Shaun, FYI I purchased the 2017 pre-slabbed.

Just started adding coins into the NGC yesterday evening, just finding the registry was a b***ache, let alone working out how to add anything...

After your comments I had a browse of the PCGS site and it appears SO much slicker however I have two concerns with PCGS;

• PCGS currently appear to have a much smaller market in the UK vs. NGC, would/does this have an impact if selling/trading? to add - it appears less so with experienced numismatic members such as yourself.
• As others have mentioned, location.  If PCGS opened in the UK I'd be so much more inclined to submit my coins with them, I'm just concerned (as a novice) in additional risks/costs in sending items overseas.

I'm in no rush to decide but thinking of grading a couple of 2022s and at some point a coupe of George IV Sovereigns - they're not MS state but I'm considering conserving/restoring & grading to protect them.

I know you've mentioned the possibility of PCGS opening an office here, has there been any traction on this?

Regards,
Lee

[Shaun]

@CaptCaveMan Yes as I say convenience is important, but I did an awful lot if research before deciding, as my collection will be #1 at either grading body, and the features available with PCGS among other factors was important to me.

Generally top coins end up with PCGS, their grades are also often accepted to be better, which is why crossovers aren't easy from NGC to PCGS, this is also why PCGS slabs tend to sell for a premium.

Don't rush the decision, but if you are only starting out I would day do whatever is easiest and cheapest for you. 

Here are some crossover stats from PCGS as an example for the last 30 days:

 

[CaptCaveMan]

Many thanks, again @Shaun

Fortunately (depending on how you look at it) it was a trade, I'm only out on postage on this occasion... actually, from initial outlay it was a plus!

It's something to take into consideration in the decision process if you have numbers you want to switch over.

Signing up now to delve a little deeper down the rabbit hole...

[Mike]

2 hours ago, Shaun said:

@CaptCaveMan Yes as I say convenience is important, but I did an awful lot if research before deciding, as my collection will be #1 at either grading body, and the features available with PCGS among other factors was important to me.

Generally top coins end up with PCGS, their grades are also often accepted to be better, which is why crossovers aren't easy from NGC to PCGS, this is also why PCGS slabs tend to sell for a premium.

Don't rush the decision, but if you are only starting out I would day do whatever is easiest and cheapest for you. 

Here are some crossover stats from PCGS as an example for the last 30 days:

 

Although I don't doubt their stats, i do believe that both registry's make it a point to show they are more conservative than the other and crossing is a challenge for them at times. I’ve had coins fail to cross or come back significantly lower (when ive elected for cross at any grade) and also coins cross as expected when going from PCGS to NGC. All this 100% justifying your statement of buy the coin, not the grade, although in current times that is sometimes difficult. 

edit: its been a while since ive crossed as now I crack the slab and send in raw and i have done this on some valuable coins. Again, it comes down to your confidence in the coin rather than the grade it has been given

[Mike]

Topic split 🙂

[Shaun]

9 hours ago, Mike said:

Although I don't doubt their stats, i do believe that both registry's make it a point to show they are more conservative than the other and crossing is a challenge for them at times. I’ve had coins fail to cross or come back significantly lower (when ive elected for cross at any grade) and also coins cross as expected when going from PCGS to NGC. All this 100% justifying your statement of buy the coin, not the grade, although in current times that is sometimes difficult. 

edit: its been a while since ive crossed as now I crack the slab and send in raw and i have done this on some valuable coins. Again, it comes down to your confidence in the coin rather than the grade it has been given

Where are NGC stats found? I don't trust much of their data, I've been working with it for some time now and their whole backend is a mess. No APIs, inconsistent and messing reference figures, fake varieties and mistakes.

I know you think I just want to push PCGS more than NGC but there is a technical and valid reason for that. If all I were interested in was cost and ease of grading then I also would have picked NGC for my collection, but I didn't so that should speak volumes right? 🙂

 

[Shaun]

@Mike Just to add one more thing on the "buy the coin not the slab" that I and you both preach. This is virtually impossible online with NGC coins, their photography is shocking and often worse than just taking a picture of the slab with your phone. It's very hard to buy an overgraded PCGS coin if you know what you're doing, as you just pop the cert in and for 90% of coins they have high res images (not for some very old slabs).

The days of shows are dwindling, so just be careful everyone with buying online. I've found that quite a lot of popular online weekly auctions sell crap NGC coins, more and more over the last few months in fact. Just keep your eyes peeled and asked for better images if you are paying a lot of money for a high grade coin. Even I've been victim of a few when I turned up late and thought I could grab something good, only to find out it's 2 grades lower and would never cross.

[Mike]

Hey @Shaun, I don't know where their stats are, i've had a quick look but without luck. I just go from personal experience, sometime ago now I had a 1937 sovereign in a PCGS PR65DCam slab cross to a NGC PF63Cam an 1893 proof half go from an PCGS PR64Dcam to an NGC PF63Cam and a similar experience on a 1937 half (I can't remember exactly now). The short story was it was obviously costly, but on the 1937 sovereign particularly I knew I'd bought a lemon the moment it arrived, but naively at the time hoped NGC would honour the PCGS grade. In all honesty, In terms of grading, on average I think they are as good and as bad as each other. Both have some bias' to certain groups of coins but it averages out across the total number graded and both definitely make big mistakes.

Don't get me wrong, I fully appreciate why you prefer PCGS, their back end, registry management and presentation is a lot cleaner, fresh and accurate. However the NGC one is ok for those who just want somewhere to build registry sets and compete, fully accepting the less than perfect data management, there is something quite nice and endearing about it in someways for those that aren't too bothered about the technology side. For me though, I choose NGC because I prefer the slabs, the aesthetics of the coin and its presentation way outweigh the differences in the registry. I also choose NGC because they've stumped up and backed the British collector and have a presence in the UK. Yes, it isn't perfect but they are here, PCGS aren't.

At the end of the day, NGC and PCGS are direct competitors over a market space that is booming and jointly they are changing the landscape of the hobby globally and in my opinion are in no small part responsible for the value growth and the attitude towards it by investment companies. At one point though I think there was a working relationship, at-least NGC were willing to recognise PCGS graded US coins in their registry and allow them to compete. However a few years back I understand PCGS went on a big marketing drive to get people to cross to them (in the primary market of the US), this escalated with the NGC CEO posting an open letter accusing PCGS of over grading to attract crossing and destroying the value of rare high grade valuable coins, PCGS reciprocated by posting an equally derisory letter accusing NGC of the same and so the relationship collapsed and we are where we are today, where from collector through the CEO of the respective companies there is an attitude of superiority of one TPG over the other and to be honest, its garbage in my opinion, its like BMW vs Mercedes, both very good with faults, but different. Which isn't a bad thing imo 🙂 

1 hour ago, Shaun said:

his is virtually impossible online with NGC coins, their photography is shocking and often worse than just taking a picture of the slab with your phone. It's very hard to buy an overgraded PCGS coin if you know what you're doing, as you just pop the cert in and for 90% of coins they have high res images (not for some very old slabs).

Agree, the NGC photography is very basic in the registry and tells you nothing about the coin, but a collector can pay for the HD photography if they wish and that can be used which is equal to the PCGS photography, NGC is also cheaper, so perhaps if the services were balanced the cost would be similar. Personally though where the NGC photography tells you nothing, I find the PCGS photography can be misleading and are over exposed, you have to look closely to fully understand the photo in front of you and you have to be experienced to know what you are looking at unless there is something very obvious. I take a more honest photo than both with my iPhone! (imo 😄). That said, I would prefer that NGC took HD photos by default rather than exception. Nothing is ever going to beat having a coin in hand but you are right, we are moving rapidly away from that and have to buy the grade in a lot of cases, hoping the TPG got it right.

[Mike]

To just illustrate what NGC are capable of photography wise, they took HD photo's of all the coins they had graded for the recent Sincona auction. link below. For me, these photo's are excellent and the light balance superb, to the point of possibly being too detailed and give a better impression than even an inspection by eye, which could put some off:

https://www.ngccoin.com/gallery/sincona/

[Steve]

I wouldn't like to go down the route of crossing from one to t'other, I have heard too many stories of strange decisions that suggests there are politics at work in both camps.

[Shaun]

On 2/5/2022 at 11:33 PM, Steve said:

I wouldn't like to go down the route of crossing from one to t'other, I have heard too many stories of strange decisions that suggests there are politics at work in both camps.

If you don't blindly cross coins you should get good results. A few of mine that didn't crossed I looked again, one got Details Cleaned (originally in NGC slab), and 100% the coin was cleaned!! shocking but cannot be angry that they didn't cross it of course.

It's important to cross from one to the other if you buy a rare coin in one, and it isn't in your set on the other, that's the purpose for the acquisition in the first place if you're going for a competitive set

[Shaun]

On 2/2/2022 at 10:35 AM, Mike said:

To just illustrate what NGC are capable of photography wise, they took HD photo's of all the coins they had graded for the recent Sincona auction. link below. For me, these photo's are excellent and the light balance superb, to the point of possibly being too detailed and give a better impression than even an inspection by eye, which could put some off:

https://www.ngccoin.com/gallery/sincona/

First time I've seen them and 100% they are far better, but personally didn't like their "style".

I'm crossing my 5 coins from this auction to PCGS so will show the differences when that time comes 🙂

 

[BRIAN GREER]

hello..........I am Brian from the colonies(Las Vegas, Nevada).................I have been collecting since 2017................I am a member of both PCGS and NGC registries..................I have found the PCGS people and registry system to be more responsive and open to the desires of the customer and a joy to work with...................on the other hand the NGC registry is simpler and therefore easier to use, but limited.....and the hired help less capable if not rude nor in some cases even aware of what collectors want or need.........................of course the available work forces are very different....Florida is less educated and California more educated........it is hard to find new employees either place..................as you may have noted a PCGS PR69 is many times  going to be a NGC PF70.........certainly not for sure................I "feel" that the PCGS grading standards are a bit higher than the NGC but both are certainly higher and more accurate than my poor abilities............the rule thumb seems to be never cross over an NGC slab to PCGS because you may loose a grade.

as I mentioned, I collect both.........but only Queen Elizabeth II gold sovereigns............the NGCs tend to cost less and the PCGSs cost more........and in many years the the NGC slabs are more available..................there are simply more coins graded by NGC...(supply and demand)...so some NGC slabs are dirt...like the 2013-I...it is hard to sell one for much over spot...and the same for 1918-i even though so many want to say that it is "Rare"...it is not.

in the end both companies do the best they can given their respective situations.......both growing like mad and having to contend with work force problems

have a good day

Brian