NGC, PCGS and Conservation / Restoration

[Shaun]

14 hours ago, Rich said:

Lovely Sovereign @Shaun.  

Do you prefer your Sovereigns in slabs/ or raw?   As such, will you be leaving it in its original slab?  Or perhaps consider conservation/ reappraisal and into a new slab?  Or even remove from the slab altogether?

I don't wish to start a debate on grading in this thread (I'm sure it will be debated in the future! 😂), but interested to know your preference.  I can see merits in both slabbing coins and keeping them as is.    

Hi @Rich, I'm pushing for all #1 sovereign runs at PCGS, anything I buy in NGC will get crossed (if it beats my current grades).

I doubt I would ever conserve a coin, I don't think PCGS even offer this. IMHO it's a NGC/NCS money making scheme pushed a lot by a certain authorized partner 🙂

I think also when you have a true Pedigree that it's nice to have it provable by the grading company too, if you break the slab that's potentially lost, especially with how poor NGC imaging is!

[Mike]

5 hours ago, Shaun said:

I think also when you have a true Pedigree that it's nice to have it provable by the grading company too, if you break the slab that's potentially lost, especially with how poor NGC imaging is!

100% agree, NGC imaging is utterly terrible. The PCGS database is in a different league.

But PCGS do offer the same / similar service, but call it restoration 🤷🏻‍♂️ Not sure if its any difference but they advertise it similar: https://www.pcgs.com/restoration

5 hours ago, Shaun said:

pushed a lot by a certain authorized partner 🙂

😄 now now, to be fair ive had some super results with it on the old coins, very hazy proofs brought back to life and some truly awful deep, dark copper spots that ruin the eye appeal (alot) removed. You do lose the lovely orange peel affect that you can get though like  on that 1817 proof of yours. 

 

 

 

 

…and NGC slabs arent ugly 😛😂🥊

[Rich]

11 hours ago, Shaun said:

Hi @Rich, I'm pushing for all #1 sovereign runs at PCGS, anything I buy in NGC will get crossed (if it beats my current grades).

Sounds fantastic, and I admire your longer term goal of the best of the best and the provenance in this case would be important.  

I am very much a hypocrite when it comes to grading coins, my heart is stuck firmly in the past with coins catalogued in a nice series of Mahogany coin cabinets with felt lined trays and coin tickets for identification.  But then my head tells me that in the modern world where distance buying covers the majority of purchases, then an indicative narrative grade and photo doesn't cut it when putting down hundreds or thousands of pounds- this is when grading comes into its own.

Also, as @mike points out, conservation/ restoration can improve coins:  

5 hours ago, Mike said:

very hazy proofs brought back to life and some truly awful deep, dark copper spots that ruin the eye appeal (alot) removed.

 

I did recently conserve and then Grade with NGC the Gold from a 1911 Coronation proof Set that I own.  The reason was that the Sovereign and Half Sovereign were so hazy and murky, it was impossible to judge the Cameo on the design, and the haze in the fields hid any sign of the polished surface- I knew the coins were good, but inquisitive to know how good, but couldn't begin to judge the Grade.  Here's a before of the Set, and an after of the Sovereign:

 

 

The Half did ok too, but I think NGC were a bit mean not giving it a Cameo designation:

 

Although I conserved the Gold- I would never consider conserving Silver coins, to my mind, that would be sacrilege.

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Rich
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[Steve]

I believe conservation is useful for hazy proof coins but I would never subject a curreny coin to such treatment.

[Shaun]

I've seen quite a few of these 1911's in such condition, and the restored example does from the images look like a great improvement. But for me there is just something about touching a coin that should never be touched, I dont know. At the price of a 1911 I would probably do it, but I would never restore an 1817 proof for example, I guess it depends on the state of the coin to begin with.

@Mike I don't have a huge opinion on the look of NGC slabs, it's the companies attitude to poor maintenance of pop reports, 100s of made up varieties, fake pedigrees, poor grading overall (imo), poor imaging, poor software, poor website. I mean, I cannot find any area they beat PCGS in, so why would i use them? The ONLY reason I think people use them in the UK is they feel it's easier, but I've graded 100s of coins with PCGS no issues. 

[Mike]

3 minutes ago, Shaun said:

ike I don't have a huge opinion on the look of NGC slabs, it's the companies attitude to poor maintenance of pop reports, 100s of made up varieties, fake pedigrees, poor grading overall (imo), poor imaging, poor software, poor website. I mean, I cannot find any area they beat PCGS in, so why would i use them? The ONLY reason I think people use them in the UK is they feel it's easier, but I've graded 100s of coins with PCGS no issues. 

PCGS without a doubt maintain the census and database so much better, and I am very envious of it. I've just been looking through it again from that link you posted to one of your sets. The presentation and categorisation of the coins is superb, very impressive. NGC would have a long way to go to even come near it. It's to the point that I can't understand why NGC haven't done something about it. NGC are too willing to accept / create a new variety just because one submitter puts something specific on a coin submission where another submitter doesn't although they may be the same and belong in the same place. So you can have a coin that is single finest / top pop, in reality it can be one of many. They just don't consider it I think when they grade, it would be a mammoth job to unwind it now if they even wanted to.

I appreciate the point that its about the coin, but if i'm putting it into a case it is important to me that it looks at it best, I do understand though that this doesn't add anything other than a visual. Im at a point where i'm considering my own label 😅 which is an utter waste of money but that will be for coins that won't see the market again for some time and for my enjoyment.

It is easy to work with NGC in London to be fair, they are a helpful bunch and you can have a 1 to 1 business friendly relationship with them in London, but maybe it's the same with PCGS. I can also drop off by hand or send by SD and they are there quick, it feels safer / easier anyway. They also rely on the US to grade which 'should' give some continuity, at least the graders have gone through the same school. I do have a problem with PCGS and that they don't have a UK office and that they grade in both the US and Paris and I'm not convinced they both grade in the same way or with he same approach / care, which to my mind anyway devalues the good work globally, that they do in the US.

Don't get me wrong, I know both companies get it wrong and there are outliers, but generally speaking they are there or there about the same I think. It could be just my experience but I have had some very generously graded PCGS proofs, especially on the older sovereigns and I have assumed, rightly or wrongly that these have been done in Paris.

If I wasn't OCD about the slabs being the same and just wanted the highest grades and not necessarily the right grades, I would send my modern proofs to NGC and my older proofs to PCGS Paris.

This post was longer than I expected 😅... best do some proper work!

[Shaun]

27 minutes ago, Mike said:

PCGS without a doubt maintain the census and database so much better, and I am very envious of it. I've just been looking through it again from that link you posted to one of your sets. The presentation and categorisation of the coins is superb, very impressive. NGC would have a long way to go to even come near it. It's to the point that I can't understand why NGC haven't done something about it. NGC are too willing to accept / create a new variety just because one submitter puts something specific on a coin submission where another submitter doesn't although they may be the same and belong in the same place. So you can have a coin that is single finest / top pop, in reality it can be one of many. They just don't consider it I think when they grade, it would be a mammoth job to unwind it now if they even wanted to.

I appreciate the point that its about the coin, but if i'm putting it into a case it is important to me that it looks at it best, I do understand though that this doesn't add anything other than a visual. Im at a point where i'm considering my own label 😅 which is an utter waste of money but that will be for coins that won't see the market again for some time and for my enjoyment.

It is easy to work with NGC in London to be fair, they are a helpful bunch and you can have a 1 to 1 business friendly relationship with them in London, but maybe it's the same with PCGS. I can also drop off by hand or send by SD and they are there quick, it feels safer / easier anyway. They also rely on the US to grade which 'should' give some continuity, at least the graders have gone through the same school. I do have a problem with PCGS and that they don't have a UK office and that they grade in both the US and Paris and I'm not convinced they both grade in the same way or with he same approach / care, which to my mind anyway devalues the good work globally, that they do in the US.

Don't get me wrong, I know both companies get it wrong and there are outliers, but generally speaking they are there or there about the same I think. It could be just my experience but I have had some very generously graded PCGS proofs, especially on the older sovereigns and I have assumed, rightly or wrongly that these have been done in Paris.

If I wasn't OCD about the slabs being the same and just wanted the highest grades and not necessarily the right grades, I would send my modern proofs to NGC and my older proofs to PCGS Paris.

This post was longer than I expected 😅... best do some proper work!

Yes NGC have created a mess, a false market for many "so called" varieties because they are too lazy. They refuse to listen to people like me. I've put a lot of effort into this reference to hopefully remove the confusion with regards to varieties, PCGS have been very open regarding it but NGC rude and dismissive to be quite frank.

Yea the software is amazing, this is a WIP but really quite cool, digital albums https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/europe/great-britain/british-victoria-sovereign-date-set-circulation-strikes-1838-1901/album/191325

PCGS have been super welcoming to the reference being created here, as it actually improves upon existing. I'm speaking with the software lead and we are on the same page with creating features better for the collector, not for money, which seems to ruin so many other areas of the industry.

I only grade in the US with PCGS, I found that any coins I purchased on the open market that were graed Paris were as you say overgraded, they like to give MS62 to all shields for example regardless of the coin!. This is well known though and luckily the cert numbers are different so easy to spot, at least they were at the beginning.

I think what matters to each collector changes through their journey, but I honestly feel that when you get towards the pinnacle of Sovereign collecting that you'll want to be with PCGS. It won't be long now before they have UK offices or even graders, I've had discussions with the now president about this and they want to make it happen but it has to be profitable with them. I really hope they do not use a dealer for the service (which is on the table), but do it themselves.

 

[Mike]

1 hour ago, Shaun said:

Yea the software is amazing, this is a WIP but really quite cool, digital albums https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/europe/great-britain/british-victoria-sovereign-date-set-circulation-strikes-1838-1901/album/191325

oh man, that's excellent. They have really identified why people enter their coins into collections online.

1 hour ago, Shaun said:

I think what matters to each collector changes through their journey, but I honestly feel that when you get towards the pinnacle of Sovereign collecting that you'll want to be with PCGS.

Yes thats a fair point, it is indeed a journey. However, I don't see me ever becoming one to be drawn towards date runs and rarities and varieties on circulation sovereigns. I have dipped my toe in quite a few times and and then sold out and come back to proof. Its about what makes something desirable to me and right now, primarily if a coin isn't beautiful and of high grade first, i'm going to end up regretting it, irrespective of everything else. Rarity (to some degree) and age is a close second but needs to be present for me to know it's not going anywhere soon. Variety for me is a nice to have, but does bring more interest and gives me something to investigate and research, but isn't a necessity. For these reasons, the NGC offering is sufficient, albeit leaves a lot to be desired when you see how PCGS come at it. Maybe I will change in time on my journey...

1 hour ago, Shaun said:

It won't be long now before they have UK offices or even graders, I've had discussions with the now president about this and they want to make it happen but it has to be profitable with them. I really hope they do not use a dealer for the service (which is on the table), but do it themselves.

Yes, I don't think it'll work in the UK unless they are present as themselves, we are different to the US culture in that sense. We don't by nature like middle men or someone involved in something that doesn't really add value, at the least we are sceptical. If, and it is a big if, I could walk into a PCGS office and have a discussion with them about my coins and the likelihood of certain collections crossing in full, then having seen their system, I don't rule out the possibility of it. I would just need to get over the slabs which is a hurdle for me but perhaps not quite as high.

[Steve]

4 hours ago, Mike said:

I don't think it'll work in the UK unless they are present as themselves

Speaking personally, if they simply had an office in the UK, preferably Midlands somewhere, I would use them exclusively. Even if it were just an agent of some sort, so long as I could easily drop off either in person or by post and the coins were insured both ways as NGC offer.

[Shaun]

15 hours ago, Steve said:

Speaking personally, if they simply had an office in the UK, preferably Midlands somewhere, I would use them exclusively. Even if it were just an agent of some sort, so long as I could easily drop off either in person or by post and the coins were insured both ways as NGC offer.

Do NGC actually cover transit of a 50k coin?

For me popping coins in the post is worth the benefit of every area of service being better, I am very happy I went with PCGS over NGC and it was a big decision to make at the time

 

[Steve]

14 hours ago, Shaun said:

Do NGC actually cover transit of a 50k coin?

I have not seen any mention of a limit on coin value re:their shipping.

[Mike]

On 11/27/2021 at 10:33 PM, Steve said:

I have not seen any mention of a limit on coin value re:their shipping.

No, there isn't a limit. They are all insured to the value declared on the submission form once in the custody of NGC. worth noting though that if they are asked to post back then once they hand over to the courier NGC insurance ends and it passes to the couriers insurance.

[DPP]

Grading is not for me, but I appreciate that others want / need it. 

I do agree with @Shaun above that Sovereigns should not be touched under the guise of conservation / restoration.  History tells us that other non numismatic restoration with the benefit of time and hindsight has ruined artefacts.  
 

[Shaun]

On 12/12/2021 at 7:28 PM, DPP said:

Grading is not for me, but I appreciate that others want / need it. 

I do agree with @Shaun above that Sovereigns should not be touched under the guise of conservation / restoration.  History tells us that other non numismatic restoration with the benefit of time and hindsight has ruined artefacts.  
 

This is an interesting point, how can we know the effect of the chemicals used in this processes in 10 or 20 years time? It is worrying that 100s of coins may be ruined just so NGC can make an extra few quid.